by Whabby
When I was a kid, growing up in a small town, there was a certain amount of bullying that went on, and one incident I remember quite vividly. Some friends and myself trapped a younger boy, Brian Osborne, in a field, and basically terrorized him for about half an hour… preventing him from going home, basically. By the time we let him go, he was scared and crying.
I look back on this incident with strong feelings of shame, revulsion, and guilt. If I were ever to come across Brian today, I would apologize profusely. Maybe, if I were lucky, he wouldn’t remember the incident at all. But if he did, I think the most important thing I’d want to say to him is how strongly I repudiate my actions of that long-ago day, and how they have nothing in common with the values and behavior of the adult that I eventually became.
At about the same time that I made life miserable, albeit briefly, for Brian Osborne, a group of Manson followers were committing far worse crimes against Sharon Tate, those who were unfortunate enough to be in the house she was renting that night, and then Rosemary and Leno Labianca. The perpetrators of those horrors are all incarcerated, and none have yet been successful in their requests for parole.
I have always been struck by interviews I saw several years ago on 60 Minutes with two members of the Manson family, Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houghton. Some of you probably saw them too. In essence, Van Houten and Krenwinkel echoed my own feelings about what I did to Brian Osborne, when it came to their role in the Tate-Labianca murders, repudiating and rejecting their old actions completely.
Now, I have no illusions as to the enormous gap that exists between my behavior toward Brian and what the Manson family perpetrated. The gap is large enough that there is really no rational basis for comparing the two events at all.
Nevertheless, compare I do. Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houton, both now in their early 60’s, keep having their prison sentence extended for their crimes. My gut reaction is to support those extensions, in large part because of the appalling nature of what they did.
But my gut reaction is accompanied by some doubts. I, as a mature adult, am not the person who bullied Brian Osborne 40 years ago, and would not feel like I would deserve to be punished for those actions today. If Leslie and Patricia really feel the same way about what they did, when they were much younger versions of themselves, do they deserve to continue to be incarcerated?
What do you think, Owls? Looking back on your youth, I’m sure you were involved in some situations, or acted toward other people, in ways that are completely inconsistent with your beliefs and actions today. Do you think you continue to bear some responsibility for those actions? Does that responsibility last throughout your life?
81 comments:
yay! off to get coffee and read
Morning Glories!
Scrish you are fast! I stopped to read area 51 and bam you landed! Congrats on first!
Whabby very interesting blog and questions. I need to think on this before I answer.
More coffee is definately needed and then I have to run Mr. Lynn D to his ride share. I will be back in a bit.
Good Morning Everyone!
BEAR: Interesting blog, as always. Things I did as a child were done with a child's mind and a still immature grasp on not only immediate consequences but long ranging ones as well. I have to own up to the things I did, but at some point, I would think, you have to forgive yourself. Being raised Catholic though, has taught me very well how to hang onto the guilt. I still remember and feel bad for things I did or said that might have hurt someone.
As for those involved in the Manson murders...my first thought would be for the families of those who were murdered. Eventhough I'm pretty kind hearted and forgiving..I think you have to think of the families that lost their loved ones.
SCIRISH: Congrats on FIRST!! And you're off and running for 2009!! ;)
LYNND: Yes, more coffee...lol..!!
TINA: Good luck today!
Good Morning. I will be back.
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What an interesting parallel! I recently read a book about "Squeaky" Fromme, who was a part of the Manson "family". The book indicated that the twenty somethings who were followers of Charles Manson all came from dysfunctional families and were heavily into drugs at the time. The book also indicated that there was heavy peer pressure and brain washing applied in order to keep the members within the "family". I found myself sympathizing at times and horrified at others.
Do I believe that as an adult we bear responsibility for our prior actions? I think so. In your blog Whabby, you indicated that you would apologize to Brian Osborne if you could. In my mind that is taking responsibility and also indicates that you still feel a measure of guilt even though you were probably "following the pack". In effect, are you not still punishing yourself? Would apologizing resolve the situation? Maybe. However the damage (such as it is in your case) cannot be undone. The damage that the members of Manson family caused is extreme and as such, the punishment should be extreme as well.
***ATTN KMART SHOPPERS***
DIANNE hasn't been able to post because she is helping her daughter take care of her grand-daughters. They had their tonsils out and are recovering a little slower than expected. She will be back in the nest when they are doing a little better...which I hope is today.
{{{HUGS}}} DIANNE!!
***END OF ANNOUNCEMENT***
GOOD MORNING TINKA!!!! Great to see your little owl again! :)
VIG: Are you back yet?? I want details woman...details!!! ;)
SACBARB: I hope there haven't been anymore Smurf sightings! Get better soon, kay??
MEK: Hope you are doing better as well...did you follow my orders? ;)
Off to get showered and assembled...early Dr. appt. today. Hope everyone has a wonderful morning.
BBL
Happy monday!!
Good morning........it's STILL pouring down rain in the desert - VERY gloomy!!
Scirish - congrats on first!!
waving howdy to Scirish, Lynn D, Zona, Tinka, and all who land!!
I hope everyone has an excellent day!!
:-)
Zona - thanks for the update on Dianne - hope her granddaughters heal soon!!
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I am back! Thank the stars it is raining and 41 degrees here today! Were having a tropical heat wave. Seattle and north of Seattle not so lucky they have school closures as they had 4 inches or more of snow yesterday.
Whabbear I understand your guilt tho I have no memories of hurting anyone, as I was the receipient of some long ago torture by a group of kids. I used to get very upset about it as I was growing up and even into my early 20's. Now I don't give it much thought. If they ever apologized I would gladly accept their apologies and forgive them after all we were young and stupid.
However as far the Manson group they went beyond hazing it involved murder, horrific murder at that. Whether they were under the influence of drugs or brain washing or were abused as children. There is still a part of your soul if you will, that knows right from wrong unless you are declared mentally incompetent or deficient. I strongly feel that they should remain in prison for their crimes. The sentences for the crimes committed seemed very fair to me and I actually think they were all lucky they escaped the death penalty.
While I understand that many of the Manson followers now feel remorse they are still blaming other things for how they committed these crimes. Example they were abused as children. Well so was I, but I never in my life thought about abusing a child or going out and taking a life because of it.
You feel remorse you grew up and realized that you were at fault and have faced that reality. In other words you are taking full responsiblity for your actions. It seems to me that by still blaming drugs, brain washing, abuse etc... they still don't get it.
I suppose you could argue that they were under the influence of drugs but really who knows. We were not there when the crimes were committed and from what I have read these were pre planned murders. They may not have known who would be killed but they knew someone would as there leader was directing them.
I could say maybe they should be released if after they had turned themselves in and confessed. The reality they did not and terrified and horrified the public.
Ok I am going on and on! Sorry gang.
So glad to see Tinka this morning!
Zona thanks for the update from Dianne! Glad to know she is Ok.
Anyone heard from Bono have not seen her post in a few days.
I have not been able to get on myspace so I have not been able to check status updates.
Ok off to check my morning news.
Interesting responses already! We're about to hit the road (seven hour drive back to the Bay Area), so I'll check back in later!
Back again.
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Good Morning Scirish - I thought I had a shot at being first at 6:30 but I will never be up at 5:33 so I think I will put the attempt at ever being first again out of my mind. Although maybe someday it will happen by accident.
Good Morning Zona-My-Baby. Sorry I have been so busy lately. Call me at four okay ?
Good Morning Lynn, who was up at 5:46. We need a West Coast handicap don't you think?
Good Morning Mek - It's gloomy here too.
Whabbear - Great post with lots of food for thought. I can't think of any behaviour that I regret but I sure remember the horror I felt and still feel towards the Manson murders. I think Manson should never see freedom because he is still crazy and could possibly kill again. The young ones who were followers I am just not sure. Canada is so lenient when it comes to handling murderers, it angers me. At least in the States they are given time to rehabilitate. The main reason for "locking people up" is to prevent them from reoffending. I somehow feel those young followers could possibly have been rehabilitated and would be no threat to society. I am very confused about these particular people. I believe in forgiveness but when I think of the little baby that Sharon was carrying never even had a chance to experience life I feel bitterness at the back of my throat. I am just happy I am not a Judge.
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VIG - I am waiting to hear from you.
Tina - Sorry I wasn't around to read or comment on your blog yesterday. I promise I will get to it today. I have so many messages to answer and still so many decorations to take down it may take me more than a day. It will be nice to get back to normal.
Have a great day everyone.
Crap..crap..crap!!!! My Jeep won't stay running!!! The Dr's office is not going to be pleased with me.
Good morning!
Whab your blog is very interesting. I can see how bad you feel for what you did to that boy.
Obviously, what you did in no way compares to the horrific details of the Manson killings. But I can see where Brian would be very scared, no knowing what was going to happen.
At least there is a possibility that you could find Brian and apologize, whereas the people involved in the killings cannot.
Can you go to Classmates.com and see if he is signed up? Then you could contact him and tell him you are sorry.
I'm sure he would appreciate it, if he remembers the incident.
Congrats on first today Scirishy!
WB Tinka!
HI DIANNE!!
I hope everyone has a nice day today. I'll be in and out running errands, so I will be back!
scirish Congrats on #1! Sorry about the car. :(
LynnD I do believe Bon is taking a break. I miss her.
Bear You are comparing apples and oranges. If the Manson group and just gone into a house, scared people, maybe even robbed them, that would be one thing, but these heinous murders were quite another thing.
I don't know what disfunction or abuse is being discussed here. Custard dated Leslie before she moved to San Francisco and met Manson. Upper middle class. Divorced parents. Boo Hoo! She was an adult when she held down Lena as she was being stabbed repeatedly! While Sharon Tate was tied up, one of them slashed open her very pregnant belly! What that group did was premeditated and horrific. Not an ounce of empathy or compassion or mercy was shown to their victims so I don't feel any for them.
I think I have a spike in my blood pressure.
Bear I forgot to say how great your blog is. Very thought provoking! Thank you. :)
Did I clear the room?
Hmmm....have to think about this blog before I comment...very thought provoking indeed.
I am off to see my Godparents and then back to my Mom's to do laundry and pack to go HOME!!!! I am so ready~
Be Back later to comment. Hi to everyone.
SCIRISH - Congrats on first!! So sorry your Jeep won't cooperate today.
WHABBY - Quite a thought provoking blog. I was quite young when those murders took place, so all I know is what I have seen on tv or researched myself. I tend to agree with JUST LIN. And I do believe that Charles Manson is beyond rehabilitation. For such heinous crimes, I believe that they should all rot in prison.
Waving a wing @ LYNN D (yeah for your heat wave!!!), ZONA (thanks for the update on DIANNE!!), TINKA (so good to see your cute little owl!!), MEK (it's a balmy 17 degrees here), EAST BAY J, and TURTLE!!
Off to meet a friend for lunch. I'll BBL. :o)
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Good morning all. BEAR - forgiveness is a subject I have thought about many times in my life. Sometimes it can be so simple, and at other times, so complicated.
Personally I have never intentionally HURT ANYONE PHYSICALLY OR EMOTIONALLY, HOWEVER i FEEL THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES i HAVE LET PEOPLE DOWN AND i DON'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT. (not going to re-type)To be able to find a way to accomplish forgiveness is very healing to the soul.
As far as the heinous acts the manson family committed, they should never be let out of prison. The people they murdered certainly aren't around to forgive them.
Back to the person you feel badly about BEAR, He may have forgiven you a long time ago. Through his own life experiences, since that time, he may have already come to an understanding that people can grow into fine, kind, upstanding citizens, such as are you.
Holy Shitzky! I am back to work and if I ever take vacation again slap me upside the head. Clearly left vm and email responses that I would OUT- back on the 5th for the last week and half. 187 emails and 46 voicemails. OY Just shoot me now!
Good day Hooters, congrats on 1st scirish and if I ever get the chance to read Whabby blog I will respond.
Have a good one....
Congrats on first, Scirish! Darn that jeep! Did it ever stay running?
Whabby, your blog hurts my head! I don't like to think that hard anymore! LOL I agree with what you said about people maturing and changing and feeling remorse. After all, they say that young adults' brains don't finish maturing, especially when it comes to rational thought, until age 25. BUT, although I feel some compassion for those who commit crimes and later become "changed" people, I don't think we could ever let them off, especially in such horrid crimes as the Manson murders.
As a 17-year-old babysitter, I once let my boyfriend in late at night when I was babysitting. The kids were all asleep and my boyfriend came in to watch tv for awhile (really!). When we heard the parents car outside, my boyfriend ran out of the back door and I had no time to lock it. Not only that, the curtains fell off the door! The next day the parents called me to ask if I knew anything about the door and I lied and said no. Needless to say they never asked me to babysit again and I still feel horrible that I lied when I think about it 32 years later!
Whabby, I always love your blogs!
Good day, LynnD, Zona, Tinka, MEK, EBJ, Just_Lin, Turtle, Jodi, Lani and Goldie!
I was just thinking about Bon yesterday. Hope she's having a relaxing break. Miss you, Bon!
Dianne, I hope your granddaughters are back to feeling good again soon!
Glad to see you today, Tinka!
Wow Whabbear, great post! I wonder if Brian will Google his name one day and read this, I hope he does. :)
I'm not too sure they shouldn't be incarcerated. I don't know how big a roll they played or whose hands were on those people when they died. If they were a direct cause of the deaths, they are where they should be, no matter how much they've changed over the years.
Their crimes far out weigh yours Whabby.
I am having a hard time coming up with anything other than calling this one boy Cheerios. I did that was because I thought he had a bland personality just like the cereal. I don't know how it made him feel, but looking back it was really rude of me.
:::shameful look:::
Waving a sleepy wing at everyone!!
Just taking a break from putting Christmas 'stuff' back in the red and green totes. I think maybe my daughter is right. I have too much 'stuff'. Hope everyone is having a great day. I will be back in the morning. Stay safe, Stay warm. Love, Tinka
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49 Since Shirley is keeping track, I am aiming to win the most "50's". Any-one want to take me on!!!!!
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Tinka You are so cute when you march! I think most of us have too much "stuff".
TINKA - You're too quick. Not enough time to "take you on"!!! :O)
good evening everyone......
I got a phone call this a.m., that my mom had fallen and I had to come pick her up - SO - I have been on "mom duty" most of the day.
she is okay - and that is what is important.......
i had planned a fun day with friends - crafting and having lunch - but that came to an abrupt halt - very quickly............
Whabby - your blog today is very thought provoking.... (and since my mother has given me the mother of all headaches.......)
I think Just Lin hit the nail on the head.
apples to oranges......
Going to watch the Fiesta Bowl..
nothing like a great football match up to calm the nerves..
LOL......
MEK I'm sorry about your mother's fall. I hope she is okay.
I hope MEKMOM is ok, sorry to hear about the fall...
Hope your headache goes away soon!
March for MEK!!
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Shirley, I do believe that's my third 69 this week!
EBJ Congrats on 69! Your dinner sounds perfect on a chilly night like this.
Hi Hooters!
I finally had a minute to read the blog. I admire that you still feel guilt about harrassing that boy Whab. I think you should try to contact Brian and let him know. It might make all the difference in the world to him, even now.
As for the Manson killers- they should burn in hell. They were all old enough to know better and did. these were not children who didn't understand cause and effect or consequences. Drugs, peer pressure, etc is nothing more than an excuse. Lots of peoplehave done drugs, had peer preasure, were raised in terrible environments and don't kill. JMHO
MEK- Glad Mom is ok. I know what a scare that can be! Now I hope your headache goes away.
Boy I worked my ass off today. I need a raise!! Or a vacation. lol
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mini march
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Goldie LOL @ mini march!
Good evening feathered friends!
SCIRISH...congrats (again!!) on 1st! Did you get to your doctor appointment?
TINKA...good to see you!
GOLDIE...I vote for you getting a raise!!
K-GIRL...safe travels.
VIG...Welcome home!Hope your trip was FANTASTIC.
MEK...sorry about your mom's fall. I hope she is ok...and your headache goes away.
CAROL...are you still all snotty?
WHABBY...I must admit, I have NO sympathy for any of the Manson murderers. They are exactly where they belong...even still after this amount of time. The only thing I regret about it is how, when I lived in California my tax dollars fed, clothed and housed them.
I think if you can, you should try and find Brian and let him know how you feel. I think you need that every bit, if not more then he does.
I don't have any recollection of intentionally hurting anyone, but I was minorly bullied as a kid. I don't think I have harbored any ill feelings from it. It was kids being kids. I did have someone apologize to me 20 years later...and I can honestly say he was STILL and asshole all those years later!! ;)~
Thanx JL!! :)
The soup was delish. Really good on a chilly night like this.
Not too long ago we watched a show, I think it was Dateline, about the Manson killings.
They were updating on the appeals and mentioned that Susan Atkins was dying of cancer, and was seeking "compassionate release".
Some of the family of the victims, I think it was Sharon Tate's sister, has gone to all the appeals and spoken against any release of the killers.
They said Susan's appeal was again denied, even though she is terminal.
I believe this is the right decision. She had no mercy for the victims, and even though she/they may now feel remorse, it just does not seem that release is an option.
Hi everyone. I had a busy day today and a VFW Aux. meeting tonight. I am just stopping by on my way to bed.
Whabbear, I just can't imagine you doing what you did. I have been trying to put myself in his place, then, and now. As a child he must have been terrified, as an adult it might have made him a stronger person. Hell, he may have even taken Karate and won all kinds of awards lol! I think we can make of bad situations what we want.You became a better person.
The Manson group at some point made the horrible choices they made. I have no sympathy for any of them!
Hope this all makes sense!
I'm off to MS and then to bed. Sweet dreams everyone!
Tinka, good to see you are back in the nest!
I've been watching the Bachelor, against my better judgement. :P
JUST LIN...are you also watching Momma's Boys? OMG, every girl should run for the hills! I would much rather be a spinster then have any of those women as my mother in law! Or the be the wife of a "boy" still tied so tight to his momma's apron strings!! Sheesh!
Maureen OMG! I know! I caught that show the first night and could NOT believe the mothers! What a living hell it would be to marry one of their baby boys. I must admit, the mothers were entertaining to watch. :)
JUST LIN...JoJo's mommy is a rreal piece of work! It's like watching a train wreck...you know it"s bad but can"t take your eyes off of it! TV sank to a new low!
good night all! I should have been asleep a long time ago!
Sweet dreams, Mo!
Just Lin and Mo - I decided that there was NO way I was going to watch either one of those shows.
I'm sure poor jason had 25 AMAZING women to choose from - but I will not be participating...
:-)
and - to all the Ohio State fans out there - I am SO sorry - I switched back with 2:50 seconds left and said - HEY - they came back and thought - this last 2 minutes will be a breeze and I was ALL READY to celebrate.........
i should have NEVER turned back to the game.........
Just Lin, EBJ, goldie and Mo - i talked to my mom a little while ago - she is very sore, but doing fine......
and my headache has finally subsided a little bit...... I just worry about her SO much.....
okay - I'm off to bed.....
I hope everyone has an excellent Tuesday!!!
:-)
Sweet dreams MEK! You might want to change your mind about watching the Bachelor next week. Deeandra (sp?), the bachelorette that rejected him last time, shows up and it appears she is trying to get him back! WTH?
Whabby: What a thought provoking blog! I am sorry I missed it to give my opinion, but in case you look back here it is.
My thoughts are that the crime they committed was heinous. They took lives from people and the normal lives of all the people around those murdered were tainted forever. I think they should continue to be incarcerated, definitely.
I think the guilt that we carry is a reminder and an opportunity. It is an opportunity to give back three times more than we took from someone by our bad behavior. And, it is a reminder of how we should never behave as an adult.
I think that it is very good of you to want to apologize to the ones you hurt.
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